Well I played my first game against the new code this week, using my Lysander Drops In list - and all my fears were realised. Because of the unholy power of Interceptor squads with scout, my deployed forces were tabled in ten one before I even got a go! We shook hands and restarted the same game, this time I was forced to put my Devastators in reserve so that they could not be alpha-struck.
Jesus Christ how are you supposed to play with a deep strike army when confronted with Warp Quake? If you have not encountered this perverted rule, it causes all units to mishap if they deep strike within 12" of a Grey Knight Strike or Interceptor squad. I've just spent $100 on drop pods, are they useless in the metagame now? What kind of rules designer creates a rule that completely hoses a common play style that is not even very competitive? Don't they know that Daemons have no option but to deep strike? Does anyone in GW actually care for the quality of this game? It's an obviously crap rule.
Well we played out second game, but as my list has no vehicles it was nigh impossible for me to get into the midfield where the objectives were. I rely on deep striking and infiltration to get my scoring units onto objectives, and this was taken away from me (servo skulls prevented infiltration). I fought a valiant battle and with a lot of luck (two deep strike mishaps luckily came back next turn) nearly managed to draw... but just couldn't shift the knights off the objectives. Being forced to move my Devastators on from reserve means they they can't shoot until turn 3 minimum.
The new codex is obviously overpowered in the following areas. I don't know how many can be fixed in FAQ:
- Warp Quake SUX. Worst. Rule. Ever. If it has to stay, make it 6".
- Scout on Interceptor squads let's them make a 30" move in deployment, then assault immediately. Easy to fix in FAQ.
- Vindicare assassin is waaay overpowered against vehicles. Drop a d6 at least.
- Psyfleman Dreads are waaay overpowers for their cost. The jump from Strength 7 to 8 is a gulf.
- The Cleansing Flame power of purifiers is bullshit for Ork (and maybe Nid) armies. It should only affect models in base contact.
- Coteaz unlocks the door for stupidly powerful all henchmen armies rocking 22 Chimeras or a bunch of overpowered stuff. Haven't played against it but on paper it looks horrendously cheap.
Let's look at the advantages of the simple Grey Knight Stike Squad member over a vanilla Tactical Marine:
Storm Bolter: can shoot twice and move up to 24"; can still assault after shooting twice at 12".
Special Weapons: can take a special weapon in a five man squad; can take two of the same special weapon, allowing the squad to focus on it's role.
Psycannons: a +1 Strength Assault Cannon but don't stop there - also let them fire 2 shots even when it moves!
Incinerators: a Strength 6 heavy flamer - could be useful!
Power Weapon: ignore armour in close combat.
Force Weapon can instant-kill multi wound opponents on a successful psychic test.
Hammerhand: +1 Strength on a successful psychic test.
Warp Quake: any unit that deep strikes within 12" automatically mishaps.
(I didn't mention PsyBolt ammo because I'm not sure that it is worth the cost - so I'll leave it out of my ranting)
What about the disadvantages?
No Melta: can't take it.
More Expensive: an extra 4 points per model.
So you can see that the... Sorry, did you just say 4 points more per model? For all that? Get out of here... really? Oh No.
Games Workshop have done it this time. Whilst Codex: Space Wolves laid a fresh dog turd on the cover of the Vanilla codex, this abomination had smeared the turd across every (badly bound) page. Grey Knights are broken - there I said it and you can quote me :)
What I am really disappointed with is the blow this codex has dealt to the non-comped tournament scene. I suspect that well built Grey Knights lists are going to rise straight to the top of the pack - and they absolutely slaughter other MEQ armies. Along with a massive influx of Grey Knights, you are going to see more IG than ever before, which is going to be boring. I would have to think twice from this point on before attending a non-comped tournament because I seriously fear this codex. (Note that I'm talking about peer or panel comp which is what we use in Australia, not the crappy rules-based comp that Americans always seem to use.)
So what are my options here for my marine army? Well I have to admit I have started looking at more recent codices for a leg up. The Blood Angels don't really suit the nature of the Crimson Fists (hell that Feel No Pain rubbish doesn't even suit the Blood Angels!) but the Space Wolves are a much tighter fit, and suit my image of a normal marine very well. Acute Senses is natural for a superman, and Counter Attack really suits the defensive nature of Tactical Marines. Looks like I might need to buy me a new codex. Now to convert me some Troll-riding Crimson Fists... only joking!
PS: I've seen a lot of people claiming that Paladins are not broken. They are right! Paladins are not broken. Stop bringing that up as an example of why complaints about the Grey Knight's codex are unfounded! They also point out that Grey Knight Strike Squads only have one attack. We know! Assault is not the problem!
I think that someone is just mad that he got his ass handed to him on a silver platter.
ReplyDeleteJust sayin'
you really have no idea what your talking about do u
ReplyDeleteAnon A: oh don't worry I'm used to losing, I don't think I have every won against the opponent I was playing. But the nature of the army this time really sucked the fun out of my army. Admittedly we did have a great game in the end, but it was a close fought struggle for me to draw - I had no hope of winning this game. Thats when something seems wrong to me. My opponent agreed.
ReplyDeleteAnon B: Hmmm I really have no idea what _you_ are talking about because you have posted a single throw-away sentence. Conversely I think its quite obvious what my angle is, because its clearly explained above. Why not point out the flaw in my rant to show us your own insight into the matter?
Plague Marine i would agree that the Grey Knights are a hard codex to face because of the psychic powers and the all power weapons, but i do not think they are broken. If you where to take a Librarian it would help alot with the psychic powers also as a GKs player i am horrified of big TH/SS terminator units because there is nothing in the Gk codex that gives me a good invuln.
ReplyDeleteSounds like sour grapes. Drop Pods and all drop pod armies are all that common in the grand scheme. Before the plastic kit, it was rare. I played the new Grey Knights in a tournament, didn't find them any tougher. I didn't have to fight the special characters, but I see you run one yourself, so you can't call the kettle black.
ReplyDeleteThere aren't very many of these Grey Knights. Just shoot them all and be done with it. Five survived against me and they hid in cover or in a landraider, so I couldn't finish them off.
They're not going to change the rules so soon after the codex came out, they are also not terribly worried about the meta game, as the Internet people like to call it. GW is only worried about one thing, selling figures. As soon as that sinks in, what they do will make more sense. Of course sometimes they still do strange things.
Bring more autocannons or even heavy bolters.
Hi Muskie, thanks for the feedback. I get your point and agree that against a lot of armies the GKs aren't overpowered. Its just that I feel that against a lot of armies they are. Sure deep strike based armies aren't all that common, but they sure are a hell of a lot more common than they will be in 3 months time. DoA Blood Angels, Marine drop pods and all Daemon armies will become extinct in the competitive tournament scene, and that makes me sad because I liked that variety.
ReplyDeleteMy point isn't that Grey Knights hose all armies, just some... including the list I am running currently. I don't think its fair to say that I'm just complaining because it hurts my army - I think thats a very fair reason FOR complaining :)
I am fine with the Librarian, all the special characters (they are expensive!), Paladins, power weapons (force weapons is pushing it though for poor Nid players), psycannons and even that vehicle psy power. I am NOT fine with Warp Quake, scouting Interceptors and Cleansing Flame.
And I'm jealous of those Psyfleman dreads!
I think the Grey Knight list you went up against was the Rock to your scissors. Almost every army has one. I bet your next battle vs a similair list would tactically go much better.
ReplyDeleteI am curious to see the lists though. It would be easier to comment on.
OK off the top of the dome...
ReplyDeleteGrand Master
2 x 5 Interceptors - 2 psycannons, 2 halberds
2 x 10 Strikers - 2 psycannons, rhino
2 x 5 Purifiers - 2 psycannons
Dreadknight - fist, sword
Should add up to 1500, I might have missed something, or possibly there was only one purifier squad.
"...will become extinct in the competitive tournament scene..."
ReplyDeleteSorry to jump on the anti-tournament bandwagon, but why should GW just cater to the tournament players like you seem to be demanding? Because the new GK codex can produce a rock to your favourite scissors army, you think it's a bad codex?!
I find it ironic that you're complaining about a reduction in variety ...at tournaments! Personally, I'd find the endless recurrence of internet-maximised tournament lists boring.
Each to their own, but I much prefer playing themed pre-heresy games against good mates. Plenty of house rules, a narrative setting and some stunning armies. Doesn't that sound better than a tournament?
My issues are: +2I Halberds, 30" shunt move that doesn't scatter, Fortitude at Ld 10, and lastly the Nemesis Dreadknight with all its bullshit. They're over the top, no doubt about it.
ReplyDeleteAs a daemons player, I do have quite a few issues with the new GK codex, but that was always going to happen. A couple of points to be made about the shunt and warp quake rules.
ReplyDelete1st of all, the warp quake rule is used in the GK player's movement phase, so if you have turn 1, you still land all your stuff in their face. 2nd is that it is a psyker test, so if they spread themselves out trying to warp quake most of the board, one will likely fail, as a result you can then drop everything near that squad and smash it.
As for the shunt, you can't use the shunt in your scout move. The shunt is a rule that you use "instead of moving", a scout move has to be a "normal move" (can't be bothered quoting the entire passage of both parts). Because a shunt is not a normal move, you can't do it. And before I get the million responses about bikes can turbo boost, that is a normal move, you don't use it instead of moving.
In saying all this, if the grey knights player has first turn, they can still scout move 1-3 squads, then in turn one shunt all over the board, then fire off warp quake. This is auto game win if you get the power off against daemons. If you have a deep striking list that can deploy (eg. Drop Pod List), unfortunatey you have to deploy, have empty pods come down here and there.
thats my 2 cents
Sour grapes? Are you fekking kidding me? "Well, let me use hammer hand on my halberd guys and hit your multi-wound models and IC's with Rad Grenades, dropping their T to T3 so they are insta-killed by my I6 Str 6 halberds..."
ReplyDeletePure bullshit.
Waah waah waah, you sound like my kids... Adjust your list based on the current metagame. Don't piss and moan about it! You sound like my kids when they don't get to do whatever BS they feel like doing!
ReplyDelete@kane
ReplyDeleteThese are legitimate gripes. If you've played against them with any marine force, you understand. I understand a codex needing to have tricks and special rules, but this codex is just flat unfun to play against. Mishaps are never fun... This increases them! You can't outshoot them, and you sure as hell don't want to assault them. Free flame attack on every assaulting model AND I6 power weapons. Seriously.
Kane, not sure how you think that advice is going to help. If I don't like something, it's OK to express myself. I've given the reasons for my dislike, and a major one is that it's very difficult for some lists to easily adjust to this new metagame. People shouldn't have to replace half of their army because of a new codex.
ReplyDeleteI just played in a tournament and ALL.THREE.GAMES were against Grey Knights. There were five GK players out of 16. It basically makes all the points you spend on multi-wound models (Nobz in my case) worthless as the grey knights just swipe them away like flies with every model having a force weapon. In the past, you may see one or two force weapons, GKs have them everywhere. It's not fun to have everything of yours get insta-killed while they all get 2+invuls in close combat from a 15 pt. upgrade. It's just ridiculous, and I left the tourney feeling cheated by GW and also feeling like I needed to build a GK list just to be competitive. Mission accomplished GW... I guess.
ReplyDeleteI have played BA for some time, and I gotter say:
ReplyDelete"GK are down right lame and OP!"
1, they field 2 to 4 pzycannons in each squad, they are st7, assult 2/heavy4 rending! WTF they are better then a autocannon on a TANK! ->lame
2, Brotherhood champion can insta kill a TITAN by just dying in melee at its base...
3, St5 stormbolters maks dangerous shooters, force weapons makes dangerous counter assult, all for jusy 9 pts more then my marines *pff*
4, all vehicles have fortitude pzyic power that ignores stunned and shaken, and cost less the mine.
5, warp quake is broken....!
6, Lord Daigo costs the same as Sanguinor (who is also broken) but beats him ANT DAY.
Matt ward did it again, and if he keeps it up it will be the end of warhammer!
Like Magic cards(the card game) the only way to win is to buy the newest, but that dont cut.
I spent days painting my army to a very high standart, at the end of the day I´m not going to switch to GK, and start over!! -> but I might end up giving up the game, I´v not had fun fighting the GK´s on any of the 6 battles I´v had with them so far..
Came away bloody and destroyed without hardly inflicting any harm.
BAHH /rant
the servo skulls don't stop your infiltration and the psycannons up to 2 in most squads unless your takeing paladins, remember the codex did just come out and everyone is still learning how to play. Any grey knight list i have made can beat and has been beaten in return just learn what you enemy can do and use what the game is about... Strategy
ReplyDeleteI recently played a doubles tournament and have to say I began with high hopes and expectations, but the last two games of the day were against draigo-wings and psyflemen lists. Not much anyone can do against 4x purifier squads, autocannon dreads and draigo-wings combined. 1st place team spammed purifier squads (and always do), 2nd place same, 3rd dark eldar raider spam (14 lance weapons) ig player (12 autocannon shots)...alpha strike bs ftw...the games broken, thinking of moving to warmachine where you can win without having first turn.
ReplyDeleteAllow me to translate most of these comments, and the original poster.
ReplyDelete"WAAAAAAAAHHHHH WAAAAAAHHH I WANT MY MOMMY WAAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH; WAAAAAHH! MOMMY; THESE STUPID GRAY KNIGHTS ARE BROKEN BOO-hooo, hoo"
Well you are partially right there Anon - these stupid Grey knights ARE broken. I'm assuming that you are upset that other people are upset about Grey Knights. Kind of a meta kind of upsettedness.
ReplyDeleteInteresting...